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HaloGuardian
03-15-2008, 01:52 AM
You've Been: Hoodwinked, Had, Took, Bamboozled

Are the Congressional Democrats Spineless?

By JOHN A. MURHPHY
The Associated Press released a report on March 8^th detailing Democrat leader Nancy Pelosi's plan to force the Bush administration to withdraw US troops from Iraq by Fall 2008 (pretty close to the time John Kerry, in his failed 2004 presidential bid, promised to withdraw them after a surge of 40,000 troops).

According to UN estimates, that means US forces will kill another 60,000 innocent Iraqi men, women and children by the proposed September 1, 2008 deadline. This of course assumes that the level of violence in the next two years does not increase over the level of violence in the last two years. An assumption that is more and more tenuous.

The bill being presented by the House Democrats goes even further than killing another 60,000 people in Iraq; it adds another $1.2 billion to President Bush's request for the continuation of the war in Afghanistan.

Rephrasing the Democrats startling challenge to President Bush would look something like this: "we demand that you only kill 60,000 more innocent people in Iraq. We further demand that you limit the deaths of American soldiers to another 1,800 and that the number of morbidly wounded soldiers must not exceed 30,000; then you must stop the war. Since we know this is going to be a difficult decision for you Mr. President, we will help you out by allowing you to kill another 10,000 more people in Afghanistan".

Since the Democrats were clearly elected with a mandate to end the war and, given that President Bush will surely veto this legislation anyway, why would the Democratic leadership propose legislation that would kill another 60,000 innocent Iraqis and 1,800 Americans before finally bringing the war to an end? The Associated Press report suggests that this was a compromise bill that would satisfy "liberal Democrats" reluctant to vote for continued funding without driving away "more moderate Democrats". The Democratic leadership fears that without a united party they would suffer an embarrassing defeat when the legislation reaches a vote later this month. Does this make any sense at all?

If the Marketing vice president wants his company to introduce a new product in six months but Finance and Operations are opposed to such an introduction they may be able to reach a compromise date for the introduction of the new product. With this kind of compromise a win-win situation can be created and nobody is going to die or become morbidly wounded as a result.

Organizations, regardless of their raison d'être, must have stated goals and a strategy for achieving those goals. The strategy is formulated after evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of various alternatives. What no organization wants to do in strategy formulation is sacrifice the long run on the altar of the short. No organization wants success in the short run if it means disaster in the long run. The congressional Democrats have decided that they would rather sacrifice the lives of innocent Iraqis and Americans than risk losing the war as an election issue in 2008. This is what happens when organizations operate without values, vision, a clear sense of direction and effective leadership. They lose the ability to identify, evaluate and set clearly achievable goals.

The Democratic House has drafted legislation which has no chance of surviving a presidential veto and at the same time does not meet the hopes and aspirations and demands of the overwhelming majority of the American voting public. They have however drafted legislation that makes them feel good. Somehow or other the so-called "liberal Democrats" are going to be happy about supporting a bill which would kill 60,000 Iraqis and 1,800 Americans because the bill will not alienate the "more moderate Democrats".

It is difficult to determine which group of Democratic legislators is more odious; the "liberal Democrats" who purport to want an immediate end to the Iraqi war but will compromise by letting another 60,000 people die in the name of party unity or the "more moderate Democrats" who have no problem murdering another 60,000 Iraqis so that they do not give the impression that they are tying the hands of the military commanders.

This bears repeating. The congressional Democrats know that President Bush will veto this proposed legislation but he could not veto legislation that did not provide the additional funds necessary for the continued prosecution of the war. Furthermore, even if the congressional Democrats in the House failed to pass legislation that would cut funding for the war, the Senate Democrats could filibuster legislation requiring its continued funding. It would only take 41 of the 51 Senate Democrats to accomplish this effective ending of the war!

Democratic Party loyalist themselves have often suggested that the congressional Democrats are spineless; that they fear a real confrontation with the Republicans and that this explains why the Democratic Party has drifted so far to the right as to be no longer recognizably different from the Republican Party.

In order to be "spineless", however, the congressional Democrats would first have to have some concept of courage or morality. There is no evidence in the decision-making process of the congressional Democrats that questions of courage or morality are ever even considered. Terms like "good" and "evil", "courageous" and "spineless" are applicable only to those who permit conscience to enter into the decision-making process. Conscience is clearly not a metric evaluated by the congressional Democrats in their strategy formulation process. The only variables considered worthy of evaluation by the congressional Democrats are party unity and the vote-getting utility of a continued war on their 2008 congressional and presidential election aspirations. There are many words which might aptly describe the Congressional Democrats but certainly not "spineless". One must question, however, whether those who continue to vote for the Democrats year after year are indeed themselves invertebrate.

When the Democrat Party workers start trolling for votes a year and a half from now they will tell the nibblers to "hold your nose and vote for the Democrats. After all, what are you going to do, vote for a Republican?" The appropriate response should be "no, I won't vote for Republican but I can no longer associate myself with the bottom feeders called Democrats. I'll vote for an independent candidate or perhaps a Green Party candidate. I will stand with Martin Luther King and remember that "there comes a time when we must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic nor popular but we must take it because our conscience tells us that it is right".
You've been hoodwinked. You've been had.
You've been took. You've been led astray, run amuck.
You've been bamboozled.

--Malcolm X
John Murphy is the independent candidate for House of Representatives in the 16th Congressional District of Pennsylvania. He has been endorsed by Michael Berg, Peter Camejo, Noam Chomsky, Ralph Nader and Howard Zinn. He has been endorsed by two county level Green Parties, two county level Libertarian Parties, the Pennsylvania Reform Party, the New American Independent Party of Pennsylvania and the GDI among others. He is also one of the founding members of the Pennsylvanian Ballot Access Coalition (http://www.paballotaccess.org/) , working to change ballot access laws in Pennsylvania. He can be reached at: johnamurphy@comcast.net.


http://www.counterpunch.org/murphy03092007.html


This is the explanation outsider and I have been saying all along, just explained in much more detail and better than I ever could.

cursed74
03-15-2008, 03:32 PM
BS
-rep

djangojazz
03-15-2008, 04:49 PM
I find it interesting the simple logic that the GOP will stay there indefinately is ignored in favor or blaming the DNC for everything going on. I say vote GOP, never get out, and then spin your answer from there. McCain has said many times he has no plans on ever getting out of Iraq and that he voted with the troops surge. I don't agree with the way things are being handled on either side, but I surely will support the side that is more apt to bring people home and has voted for it twice already. Call them whatever you want, if you can offer a viable solution of who to elect, that you are sure they will get troops out tomorrow and they will actually get elected and you can name 50 sentators and 100 Congressmen to lean with the liberal DNC to get us out, great. If not, kudos for your views never changing from preconceived notions of how things are. I'm a DNC member, I don't care if that pisses anyone off because I disagree with a lot the DNC has done, but I don't see the positives at all of sudden voting GOP.

There are 2 sides and only two sides voting on bills in Congress, because we aren't getting hot fudge sundaes for free with an end to war and massive jobs. So the DNC first year in office has been a catostraphic failure I see by how patiently people are in this country. I actually for the first time see Bush doing something smart. He is playing dead yet quietly doing what he wants on dismissing Blackwater, giving extra kickers, oil is jumping up, and now the Congress is to blame. Yeah they are too blame for not doing something about him and that is the basis of our country which is now a joke that one body's attempt with no backing in the media, public, or in government but those doing the wrong things should not be blamed and in many cases if you point at the direct problem you should be scorned or ignored. We need a body of close to a half a thousand men to be judged solely on uniting to counter one man, but that man should not be looked at nor his allies that help block laws into passage. I doubt the DNC will do a single thing until they win more seats in 2008, if they even do. They control the legislature the GOP the other two, it's a lame duck presidency, not much will get done. Many will be angry, but I highly doubt the answer to an end to war is going to come from GOP control. They are still looking for WMD and the Iraquis that will welcome us with open arms onboard the mission accomplished battleship.

djangojazz
03-15-2008, 05:29 PM
I would also add I wonder if in this country people honestly want things to get better? I'm completely serious, I've grown tired of what I've seen on most internet sites as "Hahah you idiot, moron, dumbfuck" your wrong because this op ed I read by this Irish American guy on this publication he is on says this. Yeah well I wrote this and I can link it to, start my own publication call it the djangonian and label it valid because it exists too. The amount of information that is tossed back and fro without any real regard to wanting change or positive combined joint effort for a positive gain is amazing lately in that the breadth of all arguments amount to this:

Things are going bad in Iraq and around the US in general, the people that started these things should in no way have any blame or at this point be looked at. All eyes should go to what change is going to happen and that change must happen overnight, it must be great, and if not that side failed not the one that originally made the mistake.

Personally I care more about my job, healthcare, Iraq, retirements funds and their control, corporate accountability, lobbying measures, and education as a sect of things I will vote on. Not how someone can find 1% of failure with someone trying at doing things right for the most part while ignoring the 99% of things the side that has never demonstrated success has done.

Simle question backing that up if McCain get's elected president when is he brining the troops home? Who recently endorsed him?

Part of the reason I bash Bush so much is because he has so much to be blamed for in things he has done with excusing Blackwater for murders, excusing Abuh Grab, excusing Rumsfled for his handling or Iraq, excusing Gonzales for firing US Attorneys for no reason, shooting down troops withdrawals with vetoes twice, shooting down child healthcare as "Too Expensive"(you know what the war costs?), and of course record profit years for oil and gas and we all know that the Bush, Rice, and Cheney have nothing to do with ever in their histories of who they have worked for. I may be very angry at the fact that I feel I am in a trapped time waiting for change, but I would in no way condone the other side and ignore the things they have done to focus on how one side can't change that overnight.

HaloGuardian
03-15-2008, 06:44 PM
Did you even read the article? I don't think you did. The solution suggested in the article is NOT to vote for Republicans.

I like how you said "and they will actually get elected". That is the biggest problem in this country. The people that are elected, and keep getting elected are catastrophic failures. We need to vote for people who don't suck. Whether they win or not is not in our hands. I can't control who other people vote for, I can only control who I vote for and I'm not going to be guilty in voting for anti-American, pro-war, pro-bankruptcy, pro-torture Demopublicans.

The solution is not voting for Pro-war Hillary/Obama/McCain/Republican/Democrats. The solution is voting for anti-war candidates no matter their label.

The reason I posted this article was not to say "LOL YER DUM". The article brings up the facts on how the Democrats have no intention to stop the war. If they did they could have done it already by NOT FUNDING IT which they flat out REFUSE to do. I can't vote for that, and you shouldn't either if you really want to end it. Hillary/Obama/McCain keep voting to fund it so no one should vote for any of them.

djangojazz
03-15-2008, 11:34 PM
Did you even read the article? I don't think you did. The solution suggested in the article is NOT to vote for Republicans.

I like how you said "and they will actually get elected". That is the biggest problem in this country. The people that are elected, and keep getting elected are catastrophic failures. We need to vote for people who don't suck. Whether they win or not is not in our hands. I can't control who other people vote for, I can only control who I vote for and I'm not going to be guilty in voting for anti-American, pro-war, pro-bankruptcy, pro-torture Demopublicans.

The solution is not voting for Pro-war Hillary/Obama/McCain/Republican/Democrats. The solution is voting for anti-war candidates no matter their label.

The reason I posted this article was not to say "LOL YER DUM". The article brings up the facts on how the Democrats have no intention to stop the war. If they did they could have done it already by NOT FUNDING IT which they flat out REFUSE to do. I can't vote for that, and you shouldn't either if you really want to end it. Hillary/Obama/McCain keep voting to fund it so no one should vote for any of them.

I get your point, you don't seem to get mine. Assuming everything I ever voted for was wrong and I wanted to change who should I vote for? You must please keep in mind there are only 2 dominating forces in American law decision not 150, if you pick outside those 2 they are probably going to side with one of those two in the beginning even if they alone want change they have to play with others. If the pro IQ great artist great fair but equal economic give out a free puppy party comes to office they still need representation on laws and last I checked you need another 500 or so other congress and senators to go along with that. The thing that usually happens is that young people champion a great amazing man/woman and come election day they don't vote so bad people keep getting elected. And you don't offer much positive things lately, just ideas you have that others did wrong. Where was I when they made the law up? They don't call my house or anything and I don't know Pelosi personally.

djangojazz
03-15-2008, 11:46 PM
You know no matter what I say this thread started out negative and isn't going to go any other way and I personally am sick of being negative so you win. Your op ed putting words in people's mouths indirectly is the best news ever written and is totally objectiveable in conviently linking Afghanistan to Iraq and the 60k figure the UN came up with suddenly the writer thinks he can link to saying the DNC was for that number. How can you ever find such unbiased literature by someone that can link UN words to be DNC words just by mere assumption and that that number also is an assumption to begin with. The fact that the DNC is evil and will stay in the war forever that's why they passed laws twice for troops withdrawals is proof of that. I mean don't believe what they do, believe what people write on op eds about them.

outsider
03-16-2008, 12:09 AM
It can be really hard to read your posts a lot of times Django.

HaloGuardian
03-16-2008, 12:37 AM
I get your point, you don't seem to get mine.

I get yours and I don't agree with it.


Assuming everything I ever voted for was wrong and I wanted to change who should I vote for?

Someone who you agree with.


You must please keep in mind there are only 2 dominating forces in American law decision not 150

And if you vote for that monopoly you get exactly what you deserve which is more war, a recession, and less liberty. What have we gained from having a Democrat majority in congress? My pay is the same, the economy is worse, prices are up on everything, the war continues, oil skyrockets, where is the change they promised? (and no, I'm sure you are assuming that I think this is their fault, and I don't, but they ran on ending the war which they have had many opportunities to do which they won't). I'm glad I didn't vote for these worthless politicians, are you glad you voted for Democrats?


if you pick outside those 2 they are probably going to side with one of those two in the beginning even if they alone want change they have to play with others.

Well having the majority isn't working now, why side with that? What is the difference between the Pretend we are Anti-War Pro-War Democrats, and the Pro-War Pro-War Republicans? What has pretending you are against the war and having the majority to end it done? Nothing. We get more funding, more deaths, less liberty, worse health care, which is exactly what we got with a Republican majority. You are essentially voting for Republicans which is the point this article makes. Why would you want that? (of course there are exceptions like the Ron Paul's and Dennis Kucinich's of the congress, but they are very few and far between)


If the pro IQ great artist great fair but equal economic give out a free puppy party comes to office they still need representation on laws and last I checked you need another 500 or so other congress and senators to go along with that.

This is where your analogy breaks down. What I think you are saying here is that since you want change, we should vote for candidates who will give us that who have a chance to win. But the Democrats have not given us change. So why should I vote for someone with the track record of a Republican and offers absolutely no actual change?

Also, if someone wins from a third party (or someone wins from a major party that doesn't toe the party line) what is the problem with that? What is the problem of having a small group (all be it not very influential) of politicians who actually care about ending the war, and the American people? I know that the Democrat and Republican debates where much more entertaining when there were candidates who offered something different than the status quo.


The thing that usually happens is that young people champion a great amazing man/woman and come election day they don't vote so bad people keep getting elected.

Why is that your fault or mine?


And you don't offer much positive things lately, just ideas you have that others did wrong. Where was I when they made the law up? They don't call my house or anything and I don't know Pelosi personally.

If there was major positive political news out there I would post it. If I see our troops coming home I'll post it. If the Patriot Act/other numerous spy acts get denied I'll post it. If our dollar actually becomes worth something I'll post it.


You know no matter what I say this thread started out negative and isn't going to go any other way and I personally am sick of being negative so you win. Your op ed putting words in people's mouths indirectly is the best news ever written and is totally objectiveable in conviently linking Afghanistan to Iraq and the 60k figure the UN came up with suddenly the writer thinks he can link to saying the DNC was for that number. How can you ever find such unbiased literature by someone that can link UN words to be DNC words just by mere assumption and that that number also is an assumption to begin with. The fact that the DNC is evil and will stay in the war forever that's why they passed laws twice for troops withdrawals is proof of that. I mean don't believe what they do, believe what people write on op eds about them.

Has the DNC ended the war like they promised? They have had numerous opportunities to but instead they play politics with the lives of Americans.

I just don't understand how you can trust them anymore after they continue to betray you on issue after issue.

Their voting record is similar to what the writer of this op-ed said, though it is over the top which I don't have a problem with. Instead of ending funding (ie ending the war) they create a war funding bill giving Bush more money than what he asked, and write a withdrawl date all the while knowing it will get vetoed. That's the fact. It may be negative but that's not my problem, or the writer of the op-ed's problem, that is the Democrats problem.

BillyBobRedneck
03-16-2008, 03:36 AM
( . Y . )

MsThang
03-16-2008, 05:59 PM
Boobs. heh.

iaacp
03-16-2008, 06:30 PM
I LURV THEM TITS

djangojazz
03-16-2008, 10:54 PM
And if you vote for that monopoly you get exactly what you deserve which is more war, a recession, and less liberty. What have we gained from having a Democrat majority in congress? My pay is the same, the economy is worse, prices are up on everything, the war continues, oil skyrockets, where is the change they promised? (and no, I'm sure you are assuming that I think this is their fault, and I don't, but they ran on ending the war which they have had many opportunities to do which they won't). I'm glad I didn't vote for these worthless politicians, are you glad you voted for Democrats?

Halo the thing I can't understand is that you give people like an instant to bring change or else you say they failed. The plans they are trying to change are being vetoed do you get that at all or do you just ignore that? 2/3 majority is needed for a law, again I doubt someone will ever just not fund something and quit and that goes for any party.



Well having the majority isn't working now, why side with that? What is the difference between the Pretend we are Anti-War Pro-War Democrats, and the Pro-War Pro-War Republicans? What has pretending you are against the war and having the majority to end it done? Nothing. We get more funding, more deaths, less liberty, worse health care, which is exactly what we got with a Republican majority. You are essentially voting for Republicans which is the point this article makes. Why would you want that? (of course there are exceptions like the Ron Paul's and Dennis Kucinich's of the congress, but they are very few and far between)

McCain votes for the war and the surge Obama and Hilary voted against it and to bring troops home. What don't you get about that being different?


This is where your analogy breaks down. What I think you are saying here is that since you want change, we should vote for candidates who will give us that who have a chance to win. But the Democrats have not given us change. So why should I vote for someone with the track record of a Republican and offers absolutely no actual change?

??? Were you alive during the 90's, you act like everything of the past 8 years the DNC were for. If one man blocks ever vote for: bringing troops home, stem cell research, and SCHIP why do you blame the person being blocked and say they are the same by default? That logic can get you into trouble by lumping everyone together. Especially if you want positive goals in the future.


Also, if someone wins from a third party (or someone wins from a major party that doesn't toe the party line) what is the problem with that? What is the problem of having a small group (all be it not very influential) of politicians who actually care about ending the war, and the American people? I know that the Democrat and Republican debates where much more entertaining when there were candidates who offered something different than the status quo.

Nothing is wrong with it, I'm registered DNC but that doesn't make me have to vote DNC though does it? I just don't think with what I hear lately people have much basis in reality for claiming the DNC and the GOP are the same when they tend to ignore votings and laws and concentrate on TV and debates and what op ed's say that use weak links to correlate two different things to be one and the same.


Has the DNC ended the war like they promised? They have had numerous opportunities to but instead they play politics with the lives of Americans.

That is the position they took because they won not to win. Again they vote constantly to bring troops home, the president vetoes it, they are trying. Your idea is that they have infinite power, mine is that the president is doing what he wants. The idea that somehow their voting with what I like and being blocked makes them the same as those blocking them I will never agree with. I try to do things all the time for my company if I want Adobe Photoshop CS3 for my company and my boss with the money denies me am I the same as her and don't want Adobe Photoshop CS3?



I just don't understand how you can trust them anymore after they continue to betray you on issue after issue.

They raised minimum wage, they are for universal care, Clinton in the 90's brought down the deficit and had yearly surplusses, recently they voted for stem cell research, to bring troops home twice, and for SCHIP. If they are blocked I don't blame them, they should have no problem being blocked if they replace the branch of government blocking them, executive.


Their voting record is similar to what the writer of this op-ed said, though it is over the top which I don't have a problem with. Instead of ending funding (ie ending the war) they create a war funding bill giving Bush more money than what he asked, and write a withdrawl date all the while knowing it will get vetoed. That's the fact. It may be negative but that's not my problem, or the writer of the op-ed's problem, that is the Democrats problem.

Now I know it's not that simple, but no one is ever going to just not fund American Troops they are going to form a law whether you like it or not, if they don't I will be shocked and awed and that will be the first time in the history of America a war already waged was just dumped. What you are suggesting would cause massive fighting of all sides of all parties and pretty much incite anarchy as I see it in our government, maybe that is not so much a bad thing but I doubt those that have tenure for decades will do it and the DNC and GOP has 99% of the seats so they dominate laws for good or ill.

Your idea is that if someone doesn't change the world tomorrow they aren't for change, I just don't agree with that. That's were we will always differ it seems. You want change overnight, I'm 30 years old now and I just don't think fast change is the only change. It took Bill Clinton over 6 years to get the budget to pass a single surplus year, it takes me sometimes weeks to make up a song, I don't think someone is going to get voted on Monday, stop funding by Tuesday, and bring home troops by Wednesday. But I do know in the course of one single year the DNC has unified twice to bring troops home, that in many regions of the US there isn't even a third party voting for representatin in their district on their ballot so again you are voting for a penciled in name, a DNC, or a GOP member. So that's what I mean if party # 3 comes in they still need to work with others on changing things. It's not just Moses comes in and parts the sea, although when you watch debates and hear editorials that's what they make the person they like sound like.

djangojazz
03-16-2008, 11:09 PM
It can be really hard to read your posts a lot of times Django.

You are very well written and formed out person that concentrates hard on what you convey, I just pour it out. I also like Hunter S Thompson and Kurt Vonneget over say Hemmingway or Mellville. I know people rate those on how they say things a lot over what they say, but you never ever say what it is that bugs you. Just that it does. Incomplete thoughts, dangling participles, lack of complete conclusion in a proper paragraph?

I knowww u r smrat enof to gt wut i mn fr th mst prt. Yu cn udnrsntd tngs evn if not completely written wll bcse a smrt prsn cn rd bwtn the lns.

If I had a job where I wrote day in and out or was still a student I am sure of my ability to write better than I do. As it is now unless someone is grading me I really could care less if you get what I'm talking about. I write very rarely except for enjoyment or emails which I spew out very quickly and forget about. I know I write worse than you, I know I could do better, sorry I'm here for fun and I don't preview enough.....

fibula
03-16-2008, 11:54 PM
You just need more spacing. Never be afraid of having too short a paragraph, especially on here because it’s hard to read

Just my two cents

iaacp
03-17-2008, 02:29 AM
whats an apologist?

HaloGuardian
03-17-2008, 02:35 AM
a·pol·o·gist (ə-pŏl'ə-jĭst)
n. A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

MsThang
03-17-2008, 04:34 AM
whats an apologist?


a·pol·o·gist (ə-pŏl'ə-jĭst)
n. A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

In other words, Django.

iaacp
03-17-2008, 06:09 AM
a·pol·o·gist (ə-pŏl'ə-jĭst)
n. A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

thanks.


In other words, Django.

well, wouldn't that be all of us, considering we all defend something?

TheZenMan
03-17-2008, 02:54 PM
well, wouldn't that be all of us, considering we all defend something?

Typically people justify and defend their own actions and beliefs.

An apologist defends another person or group's actions.