Iraq, where do we go from here?

[GoodCitizenDan]

It seems like we(more or less) agree on this issue.

As for the water/power figures, I read it in a book. I believe it was that Thomas Ricks book. Everything I've read from him tells me he's a credible source. Iraqi electricity was never really as good as american electricity service. They only provide electricity service during certain times. I can't quote exact figures, since I don't have the book with me today, but I distinctly recall the author stating that we haven't been able to bring electricity service back to the pre-war norm. Meanwhile, all of the facilities for our troops have electricity 24/7. So, you can see how there'd be a little resentment there...


It could deteriorate, or it could get better. There's no telling.

The problem is that it IS deteriorating. We can't assume that things are gonna just start turning around without a drastic change of policy. I think its a safe assumption to think that it will continue to deteriorate, considering the sheer amount of effort it would take to turn it around. Sure, policy could change tommorrow and enlistment levels could suddenly rise, but I tend to operate on the most likely scenario, not the best-case scenario.

[GoodCitizenDan]

Speaking of troops, I've been hearing the word "draft" thrown up lately. All I can say to that is BULLSHIT!

The only guy seriously talking about a draft has been proposing that same plan for YEARS. He's been doing it since well before the Iraq war. He thinks that the all volunteer army places an unfair strain on low-income people. Honestly, I think his reasoning is bullshit. Its not like anyone is forced to join the military(though some are forced to stay). If anything, the army provides a springboard by which people without many chances can turn things around, pay for school, and such.

Still, the fact remains, a draft may be the ONLY way to enlist enough troops to actually get the job done over there. We have to be real about the situation. A draft is the kind of commitment that would be required to finish this thing right. Do we really care about the situation enough to take those kinds of steps? I know I dont and I'm betting your average apathetic american feels the same way.

[Gred]

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/electricitychart2.gif

http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf

[GoodCitizenDan]

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/electricitychart2.gif

http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf

Thanks for that. Looking now, the numbers are even worse than I remember. I knew that electricity coverage has been worse since we invaded the country, but I had no idea it was still deteriorating. I guess common sense made me assume that electricity was improving atleast a little as time passed.

[Tex]

Thanks for that. Looking now, the numbers are even worse than I remember. I knew that electricity coverage has been worse since we invaded the country, but I had no idea it was still deteriorating. I guess common sense made me assume that electricity was improving atleast a little as time passed.

The insurgents are playing hardball. They have to be targetting those sites. I hate the pricks, but it's a smart move on their part hitting them hard to piss off the Iraqi people and get them to really hate us.

Maybe if we had more troops we could defend them better. But with all the Iraqi troops we trained I still don't understand why they can't protect the bastards.

[djangojazz]

Every day violence against our troops grows. Every day the average citizen turns against us more. Every day it gets harder to operate in the area.

And also I would argue that how do contracts or buildings have anything to do with an established government? I could build a billion Wallmarts, some Best Buys, some McDonalds but if there were still people getting shot in their homes and on the streets, well........ This proposal that a lot is being accomplished is far outweighed by 3 obvious things:

1. Even if Iraq's economy started to move onto a developed one quickly, why are more of our troops dying than before? Does our own civilization and our rules and how we are losing them matter at all if Iraq gets more McDonald's?
2. If there is so much good in industry occurring over there why our organizations like Halliburton overcharging our own troops and why are our troops asking for armor?
3. If things are so great with project accomplishments how come at none of the elections has even a minimalistic police, private, or other force been able to protect Iraquis.

have many friends that know more on the history of the Middle East. But I know one thing that should be glaringly obvious to more Americans and makes me mad, I have been READING and PAYING ATTENTION for the last 6 years and some of you seem to be able to minimalize anything later to make it seem better than it is. The reasoning and rationale has changed every step of the way and the time of excuses is still occurring, and you know what if you were operating on me I wouldn't like the doctor to say "You know we are kinding of making this up as we go, go with us though we'll make it sound good". It needs to stop, if we were to believe that things are going great over there well I have to ask again: "Have you been paying attention over the last 6 years?" Now some may tell me well the media is liberally biased, well okay then when we invaded Iraq wasn't there a news camerman from every channel on some point during the day talking about how great our technology was, how fast we were invading and driving away forces? Where are those people now that we are in, oh yeah some of them died, that's not really good coverage to mention that.

Things have been accomplished for Iraquis, Great! Since this war we have now had wiretaps made on regular citizens, a president given the right to eliminate due process, a president that nearly every single law that may spy on everyone signs an extra line to say "well not me though", Tens of billions of dollars unaccounted for from the government in this war with no thought or goal to investigate, The major news media to the soldiers in the Air Force, Nave, Marine, and Army Times asked Bush to have Rumsfeld step down. So while private contractors may be doing great you have to ask yourself: "If you throw enough money at something of course things can be built at lightening speed when none of the money is ever returned with a receipt". But you have to ask yourself at some point: "When are we going to stop fighting the boogie man, because there is no clear person we are fighting anymore. There is no goal anyone that have these great statistics ever have other than, if we keep going on things will get better? When? I don't want to know that I paid over 5 trillion dollars 20 years from now so that for 15 years we could get cheaper oil and make the same people that made a mistake of getting us in there instead of get punished have their companies have record year profits.

Facts speak for themselves, if you have been paying attention you can spin stuff any way you like but 3 key things.

1. More people are continuing to die AFTER the war was declared over, more people are increasing in deaths, unfortunately of how fast they are dying.
2. The money and troop effort is too small and no other nation, international body, or private contract firm is really helping. It's the US pretty much alone, where are those 20 or more allies that Bush was trumpeting in 2003?
3. There is no party in the US whether they be Republican, Democrat, Liberatarian, Congressional, Green, or other denomination that has stepped forwar and key point here: been listened to by anyone in the administration that effects policy over there. If someone is failing, not changing but "staying the course" and the course is ignorance, denial, and just not taking a look at making adjustments then things can't change and won't.

That's why I say we get out, this is a war for oil. Same thing I said in 2002 when Iraq had an oil embargo against any nation supporting Israel at the time of Israel trying to capture and kill Yassir Arafat. People said I was crazy, now Bush mentions in his addresses how important it is not to have a dictator in charge of a region with vast oil reserves, Halliburton fleeced our troops under a no bid contract and oh yeah Dick Cheney just happened to used to be a head officer, and well everyone in the Bush administration from Condelezza to Gale Norton used to be on oil payrolls. But it's not about oil.......

[fibula]

But I know one thing that should be glaringly obvious to more Americans and makes me mad, I have been READING and PAYING ATTENTION for the last 6 years and some of you seem to be able to minimalize anything later to make it seem better than it is.

Oil, schmoil

[Tex]

Oil, schmoil

[Armedmadillo]

Oil, schmoil

[Stingray427]

Thanks for that. Looking now, the numbers are even worse than I remember. I knew that electricity coverage has been worse since we invaded the country, but I had no idea it was still deteriorating. I guess common sense made me assume that electricity was improving atleast a little as time passed.


Thats cause our contractors won't go out and fix the shit anymore cause of the insurgents. Hell, when all this shit first started my company met with some KBR guys in DC. They wanted us to partner up (read that as subcontract all the work to them and get MBE points by running it on our books). We have too much integrity for that crap, but if we had I would have pulled my people out by now too.


Fuck em. Let em blow themselfs up in the dark if they want.

[Gred]

http://www.phillyist.com/attachments/philly_nicole/mission-accomplished.jpg