This Is What Waterboarding Looks Like

[Stingray427]

Also, implying that we either agree with you or else we think we'll never be attacked again is another horrible flaw in logic. It's a false dilemma.


Horse shit. Either you think its over or not. and if not, then you won't to actively combat it, hunker down and be a hard target, or sit on your ass and piss and moan.

There isn't a whole lot of grey on that.

[outsider]

You are painting a VERY incomplete picture Ray. The only reason I can think why you would do that is because that is the only way your vast holes in logic actually work in your head.

[Stingray427]

Incomplete? kiss my ass. either it is or it isnt. Do you think we'll get hit again or not. You tell me, YES OR NO!

[outsider]

Hell if I know if it will or won't. I'm not psychic and certainly neither are you. Chances are we will and that all the torture in the world won't do a thing to stop it.

You can try to cast a diversion on the legitimacy and accuracy and moralness of torture all you want but until you actual discuss those things all you are doing is dodging.

You make it sounds as though either we torture people who may or may not be guilty of anything other than Muslim in Iraq and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I find it to be wholly unacceptable under any circumstances to start tearing off pieces of the Constitution or to start applying white-out to it just because YOU want to use fear as the absolute sole basis for your arguments.

Seriously Ray, you really are drawing a severely incomplete picture in black and white reasoning. False positives hurt stopping any future attacks, the soldiers in Gitmo guarding the detainees are wasted boots on the ground, the time spent torturing people who may or may not be guilty is a waste and could be used elsewhere to gather good intel (Seriously, does torturing someone who has been in lockdown for the past few years actually make you think we will stop anything current?). The time spent in Congress shredding Habeas Corpus would be better spent putting them through trial and shutting up a lot of the critics as well as acknowledging that we are a nation of laws instead of whim and emotional reactions.

Your picture is incomplete, and to a varying degree, so is mine. The difference between you and I is you get pissed when people pull the curtain away a little and I'm digging through it to see as much of it as I can see.

[Stingray427]

No, I'm not saying torture any or every Arab, or anything like that. We should use all the investigative means at our disposal. My point was not of justification, but understanding. Like I said "If your loved on could have been saved" Key word being "If".

Now looking forward, if we catch a guy with a laptop. And he has everthing on a lap to that points to an impending attack. How hard should we go at him to fill in a date or time or some small bit of vital info that could prevent an impending disaster?

Its a moral question for each of us. I know what [b]I[b\] would do. Then it becomes a sociaty wide moral question. What should [b]WE[\b] do.

I'm just challaging your "grey area" thinking witrh some absolutes... and the choice aint easy. But it does cut to the core of each of us.


Remeber the group of Nazis that tried to assasinate Hitler? Whould you pull the trigger (or waterboard the captive) to potentaly save thousands of lives. And if you do, will you EVER know that you really prevented anything since it didn't happen?

[Stingray427]

and don't take my "fuck you's" personally. Its called a spirted debate.

[GoodCitizenDan]

I know what [b]I[b\] would do. Then it becomes a sociaty wide moral question. What should [b]WE[\b] do.

Hmmmm.... [b]good question[b\].
Maybe [b]we[\b] should learn how to use BB code...