A Deadly Kindness

[Armedmadillo]

HG just break it down this way. You can tell people how to treat detainees here however you like, but if you got caught in the middle east and were held prisoner DO NOT think that you are going to have a HALO LAN party with your captors and crack a few beers.

[HaloGuardian]

Who's in prison for not committing a crime?

Many of the prisoners, admittedly, have never been convicted of commiting a crime.

[HaloGuardian]

That's nothing but a load of elitist moral relativism bullshit.

Did you even read the article?
You're the only one mentioning any of these tactics, yet you're trying to foist them on me.

It seems like everything is relative to you. You didn't say you opposed any of the tactics I posted, yet any sane person, in my opinion, would oppose every single one.

If the government said you could save a million lives by torturing one person would you do it? Put yourself in the torturers (if that's a word) shoes.

Yes I read the weak article but I was commenting on your comments, not the article. I have no idea what the point of the article was. Was it to prove that torture isn't happening, is it to say that the US treats detainees like royalty? It just seemed like it was trying to defend the government, he made the statement " The kinder we are to terrorists, the harsher we are to their potential victims." What a friggen joke, he has already predetermined in his own mind that we need to treat them worse to stop more attacks.

Leading people in the military, and those in different studies show that TORTURE DOES NOT WORK. The detainees are going to say what the person wants them to say to end the torture, even if it is not true.

[HaloGuardian]

Nevermind. You were replying to Zen. My mistake.

I will say I don't think sleep deprivation, playing loud music, and our soldiers wiping their asses with the all-mighty Koran could be considered torture.

Do you?

No. But as a soldier would you wipe your ass with a Koran? Just sounds childish to me, plus it wouldn't be very soft.

[HaloGuardian]

If I say I would be honored to do the crime again, I don't see how it makes me innocent.

Wait, what were these people convicted of?

[HaloGuardian]

HG just break it down this way. You can tell people how to treat detainees here however you like, but if you got caught in the middle east and were held prisoner DO NOT think that you are going to have a HALO LAN party with your captors and crack a few beers.

You have an unrealistic hypothetical.

1. I wouldn't be in the middle east.

2. Torturing people here would not stop me from getting tortured.

[TheZenMan]

Many of the prisoners, admittedly, have never been convicted of commiting a crime.

Admittedly?

Sure.

[TheZenMan]

It seems like everything is relative to you. You didn't say you opposed any of the tactics I posted, yet any sane person, in my opinion, would oppose every single one.

If the government said you could save a million lives by torturing one person would you do it? Put yourself in the torturers (if that's a word) shoes.

Yes I read the weak article but I was commenting on your comments, not the article. I have no idea what the point of the article was. Was it to prove that torture isn't happening, is it to say that the US treats detainees like royalty? It just seemed like it was trying to defend the government, he made the statement " The kinder we are to terrorists, the harsher we are to their potential victims." What a friggen joke, he has already predetermined in his own mind that we need to treat them worse to stop more attacks.

Leading people in the military, and those in different studies show that TORTURE DOES NOT WORK. The detainees are going to say what the person wants them to say to end the torture, even if it is not true.

Relativism, not relative. Look it up if you have to.

And why do you care what I think? You have all the answers.

[Tex]

No. But as a soldier would you wipe your ass with a Koran? Just sounds childish to me, plus it wouldn't be very soft.

:laugh: Softness is irrelevant. But you're damn right I would. The Muslims have a funny thing about cleanliness. One Muslim I know said you can't even touch the book without being "clean."

Wiping my ass with a Koran or pissing on it, blowtorching it (you get the idea) in front of a Muslim would be a huge form of humiliation. Remember what happened about the story of our boys flushing the Korans down the toilet. :rolleyes:

See, these guys in Gitmo are religious finatics. This article claims out of the 440 or so most all of them would attack us again gladly . So, with them being religious finatics, stating the things they do, I say screw them being allowed to practice their religion.

As coercion (not torture) threaten to only let them pray once a day, once a week, not at all, etc. Instead of breaking an arm if they won't give up intel, threaten to take their Koran, which they're finatical about, and defile it, make it "unclean" (as they see it) and drop it back in their cell. Or threaten to burn it. Hell, I can think of a lot of things.

Force them to view pictures of Mohammed fucking a camel, or whatever works to get them to talk. Sleep deprivation, coercion by using psychological means, I don't see as torture. I think you get my drift. They're religious finatics, and that finaticism for their religion can be used against them.

[Armedmadillo]

Wait, what were these people convicted of?

Being Terrorists/Aids to terrorism in some form seen fit. It's blatant, but thats what it is, they fucked up something or acted in some way to assume suspiciouness in a situation they shouldnt have. If we were really so random at picking our prisoners Im sure all of Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc would be in our prisons since we believe that being brown = terrorism.

[outsider]

So.... if you people are willing to stoop to the level of the terrorists, then how are you yourself not being a terrorist? Are you not trying to use terror to further a political cause?

[HaloGuardian]

Admittedly?

Sure.

Show me what they have been convicted of and I will believe you, until then, what I have read stands. These are supposed terrorists...

[HaloGuardian]

Relativism, not relative. Look it up if you have to.

And why do you care what I think? You have all the answers.

If I didn't care what you thought I wouldn't have asked you. I have never said I had all the answers you just think I do because I am a "child". It seems you avoid my questions because either 1. You are too lazy to answer them or 2. They make you uncomfortable.

Would you torture a "terrorists" child under the banner of national security? Yes or No?

[HaloGuardian]

:laugh: Softness is irrelevant. But you're damn right I would. The Muslims have a funny thing about cleanliness. One Muslim I know said you can't even touch the book without being "clean."

Wiping my ass with a Koran or pissing on it, blowtorching it (you get the idea) in front of a Muslim would be a huge form of humiliation. Remember what happened about the story of our boys flushing the Korans down the toilet. :rolleyes:

See, these guys in Gitmo are religious finatics. This article claims out of the 440 or so most all of them would attack us again gladly .
"We just disagree that is all, different points of view". :rolleyes:


So, with them being religious finatics, stating the things they do, I say screw them being allowed to practice their religion.
Oh, so strong beliefs and strong statements makes you a terrorist?


As coercion (not torture) threaten to only let them pray once a day, once a week, not at all, etc. Instead of breaking an arm if they won't give up intel, threaten to take their Koran, which they're finatical about, and defile it, make it "unclean" (as they see it) and drop it back in their cell. Or threaten to burn it. Hell, I can think of a lot of things.
Why not cut to the chase? That takes time you know to get to bone breaking.


Force them to view pictures of Mohammed fucking a camel, or whatever works to get them to talk. Sleep deprivation, coercion by using psychological means, I don't see as torture. I think you get my drift. They're religious finatics, and that finaticism for their religion can be used against them.
You do realize that torture has never proven reliable to get good information right?

[HaloGuardian]

Being Terrorists/Aids to terrorism in some form seen fit. It's blatant, but thats what it is, they fucked up something or acted in some way to assume suspiciouness in a situation they shouldnt have. If we were really so random at picking our prisoners Im sure all of Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc would be in our prisons since we believe that being brown = terrorism.

I never said it was random.

[Tex]

Show me what they have been convicted of and I will believe you, until then, what I have read stands. These are supposed terrorists...

If this article is 100 percent factual, they say they'd gladly attack us and kill more Americans, are you still going to sit on your high horse and say they don't deserve to have some form of coercion put into place to get intel?

Come on, Halo. That's a bullshit argument. Hey, I can admit if this article is untrue, then your point might wash. But if it is true, your position really doesn't make any sense.

So, let me get this straight. If they're not convicted, but they say they'll kill us again, they don't deserve to have coercion techniques applied? All I can think of to put up for that is :eyeroll:

[Tex]

Oh, so strong beliefs and strong statements makes you a terrorist?


Show me where I stated that. Now, if the strong statements you're speaking of is them saying they'll kill us gladly if they get the chance, then you're damn right they're a terrorist. You think they're Boy Scouts? :eyeroll:


Why not cut to the chase? That takes time you know to get to bone breaking.

Because you and I both know it's wrong. Are you changing your position?


You do realize that torture has never proven reliable to get good information right?

Says you. And again you're using the word "torture" when you said the things I've mentioned you don't consider as such. You're really preaching to the choir on that point.

But I will say if we know for a 100 percent certainty a person slit the throat of an American soldier or civilian, or some other horrible act, it's a 100 percent fact, torture could be an effective means to get intel. Where you get that human beings subjected to torture won't spill their guts after being subjected to it is beyond me.

[Tex]

Show me what they have been convicted of and I will believe you, until then, what I have read stands. These are supposed terrorists...

On that point you're going out on a limb thinking they're not and innocent. When obviously, if this article is true, they would fall into the label of being a "terrorist."

We're just taking two different positions. I don't think the government is holding them just because they can and to piss of Muslims around the world. Don't you think, just even in the slightest sense, there might be a reason a shitload have been released, and that the ones that remain are violent and a threat and being held for a reason?

Are you saying something different?

[TheZenMan]

If I didn't care what you thought I wouldn't have asked you. I have never said I had all the answers you just think I do because I am a "child". It seems you avoid my questions because either 1. You are too lazy to answer them or 2. They make you uncomfortable.

Would you torture a "terrorists" child under the banner of national security? Yes or No?

Don't be stupid. Of course not.
I never once mentioned torture, nor implied it, nor do I support or agree with it.

And I don't know a thing about what you think, I'm not you.
And the same goes for your knowledge of what I think.

I didn't post this article to suggest torturing anyone. I'm not an interrogation professional, and I can't tell you what anyone considers torture. What we have here is simply something that's broken and needs to be fixed.

I do indeed think too many of us are blinded by our own decency. I don't think war criminals should be allowed constitutional rights, or Subway sandwiches and lawyers.

It's an opinion piece and that's my opinion of it. I didn't avoid your questions, I ignored them because I was convinced you couldn't possibly be serious, guess I was wrong.

[TheZenMan]

Show me what they have been convicted of and I will believe you, until then, what I have read stands. These are supposed terrorists...


Show you? Show me they're innocent.

It's the same dilemma. Why should I give them the benefit of the doubt, because it's their right? Nope, I'm not willing to. I don't believe them.