Has Israel Gone Too Far?

[Unreal Player]

see they sure as hell are going too far when innocent people like Spider's family are in danger. Pisses me off, I hope they return safely spider.

[GoodCitizenDan]

80% of the world is frothing at the mouth to prove something right now. As far as I can tell, a major war in the near future is unavoidable. The only real question is, to what extent is YOUR country going to get pulled into the BS. Being an american with a trained monkey sitting in the Oval office, I'm betting this doesn't work in our favor...

[Team Brian GB]

The only way out is into Syria, and that isn't exactly in Israel's goodbooks. If you are not close to the Israeli Border, Military installations or it seems the airport then you should be fine. If I wanted to leave Lebanon right now, I'd cross through Syria and fly from Turkey, which is what I assume alot of tourists would be doing.

I hope your family is fine and wish them well Spider

[Team Brian GB]

80% of the world is frothing at the mouth to prove something right now. As far as I can tell, a major war in the near future is unavoidable. The only real question is, to what extent is YOUR country going to get pulled into the BS. Being an american with a trained monkey sitting in the Oval office, I'm betting this doesn't work in our favor...

That is what I'm wondering, how far would Britain go, I personally don't believe we would, especially as public opinion is so against Israel's actions, I'm completely furious with them that they have flipped and created this mess we may be forced into. It's like the beginnings of World War One, multiple alliances and defence treaties, if one Country gets involved then so will another and then more will come in because such and such did. I'm sure Blair being Blair he would want to follow Washington, though as he as on the ropes, his approval rating is sitting at somewhere like 15% then we wouldn't get involved unless our forces in Iraq were attacked by a third party.

Also if this esculates to such a level, then I can see North Korea using the oppertunity to show South Korea and Japan it's missile inventories as the US will be more occupied in the Middle East. I couldn't see an invasion of Taiwan though, as China would have more to gain from watching America get battered while they are viewing on from afar.

[SpiderByte]

see they sure as hell are going too far when innocent people like Spider's family are in danger. Pisses me off, I hope they return safely spider.

Thanks man. My grandparents live in Lebanon. My mom's sister and husband (and kids) live in Kuwait...they are visiting Lebanon. So yeah I am hoping they return safely as well as my mom.

[Team Brian GB]

I was thinking, just as well Israel are not a member of NATO, then we would have problems.

Though the British Foreign Secretary has just come out with a statement and she extremely critical of Israel's actions. I'll try and find a transcript of it. I was looking at the FCO (foreign and commonwealth office) talks of Israel's actions as an invasion

[GoodCitizenDan]

It's like the beginnings of World War One, multiple alliances and defence treaties, if one Country gets involved then so will another and then more will come in because such and such did.

I've been thinking the exact same thing lately. There are alot of similarities between our current times and what the world was going through back around 1914.

One could easily compare the tragedy of 9/11 to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. OF COURSE not in the number of people who died in the incident, I mean comparing how those 2 events both set off a chain of retaliation.

[Team Brian GB]

I've been thinking the exact same thing lately. There are alot of similarities between our current times and what the world was going through back around 1914.

One could easily compare the tragedy of 9/11 to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. OF COURSE not in the number of people who died in the incident, I mean comparing how those 2 events both set off a chain of retaliation.

exactly- the warning signs for WWI came as early as the 1870s. Though it was the assassination in Sarajevo that set the ball rolling- obviously it led to world war one, which led to world war II which led to the Cold War. 85 years of events caused by oe spark in 1905. So how will 9/11 and the Iraq War change the world, and for how long will it's legacy effect World events?? Germany was long suspected as a possible enemy to go to war with, China are today in that role.

[Team Brian GB]

www.jpost.com (http://www.jpost.com)
is a good website to follow up to date news reports on the Middle East crisis

also: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5175756.stm

[MsThang]

As far as I can tell, a major war in the near future is unavoidable.

I said the exact same thing just an hour ago.

[Söy]

the thing about WWI is it could have been completely avoided if the right people had been held accountable; Franz Joseph of Austria didnt want a war at all, and in fact wanted to gloss it over but his Foreign Minister was alot like our current White House (manipulating intelligence/facts, etc.) and then Kaiser Wilhelm gave Austria a blank check w/o even asking what they intended/wanted to do, and rather than break a promise after finding out what, they kept faith with them. Yet rather than punish Austria (because they of course started WWI), the Allies punished Germany. Why? Simply because they didnt want the economic/colonial competition... which was a direct way to WWII...

[Team Brian GB]

the thing about WWI is it could have been completely avoided if the right people had been held accountable; Franz Joseph of Austria didnt want a war at all, and in fact wanted to gloss it over but his Foreign Minister was alot like our current White House (manipulating intelligence/facts, etc.) and then Kaiser Wilhelm gave Austria a blank check w/o even asking what they intended/wanted to do, and rather than break a promise after finding out what, they kept faith with them. Yet rather than punish Austria (because they of course started WWI), the Allies punished Germany. Why? Simply because they didnt want the economic/colonial competition... which was a direct way to WWII...


It started because Russia wanted to defend Serbia, that meant Britain and France had to get involved

[Söy]

yes but the whole chain of events could have been 'nipped in the bud' if the right people had stood up.

[Team Brian GB]

yes but the whole chain of events could have been 'nipped in the bud' if the right people had stood up.

But it wasn't, it is the classic "the only thing necessary fof the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" The last time this truly happened was the Cuban Missile Crisis, had it have been Nixon and Brezhnev instead of Kennedy and Khrushchev then it would have been good luck and good night. In this scenario, there isn't the obvious person who would be willing to put themselves on the line to halt the chain of events. Obviously the Israeli's are not going to do this after they have got the World's attention by invading Lebanon. The US is too close to Israel that it won't do anything, the United Nations doesn't have the power or legitimacy to have any affect. Obviously this is what the fundamentalists want. There is no one that can stop this.

[Söy]

unless god himself parts the heavens and says 'hey! stop it you two! stop it! be good lads!'

[TheZenMan]

Why do so many otherwise sensible people continue in this fantasy that we are fighting against 'terrorism'? The real conflict in which the world is now engaged is between between Islam and Zionism. Or more specifically, Islam vs. Zionism and Everyone Else. The core of this conflict is grounded in faith and all the horrors it entails. Part of me wants to type out another angry anti-religious tirade, but it's just easier to let my current favorite author, Sam Harris, have the final say:

That's anything but a final say.

I like this guy's open approach to the whole thing, but his hard-on against faith is petty at best. Faith and religion are two different things.

Your faith in this man's work for example, is it a religious?
No, you'll tell me it's rooted in facts, yet they're facts you accept on faith.

Faith isn't the enemy man.

Don't get me wrong, I dig this guy's angle, I'd like to read the book.

[Darth LOL]

I dig your point, Zen. Please remember, within the context of a web forum I try not to overelaborate certain points, instead using key words as bullet points for specific ideas. When I speak of faith, I'm referring specifically to a species of belief that is lacking in observable evidence. Did Moses speak to God through a burning bush? Did Jesus rise from the dead? Was Mohammed taken to heaven? These are articles of faith by which people live, die, and kill over. The very lynchpins of the faith of billions. Yet, they are as unprovable, as absurd as the gods of Olympus and Valhalla.

This is the crisis point to which these millenia of absurdities are leading us, because from here on out the Crusades and Jihads of the world will be fought with nuclear missiles and fighter planes.

[Unreal Player]

I dig your point, Zen. Please remember, within the context of a web forum I try not to overelaborate certain points, instead using key words as bullet points for specific ideas. When I speak of faith, I'm referring specifically to a species of belief that is lacking in observable evidence. Did Moses speak to God through a burning bush? Did Jesus rise from the dead? Was Mohammed taken to heaven? These are articles of faith by which people live, die, and kill over. The very lynchpins of the faith of billions. Yet, they are as unprovable, as absurd as the gods of Olympus and Valhalla.

This is the crisis point to which these millenia of absurdities are leading us, because from here on out the Crusades and Jihads of the world will be fought with nuclear missiles and fighter planes.
IMO it's only a matter of time before people stop believing bull shit(religion). However, it may not be soon enough.

[TheZenMan]

I dig your point, Zen. Please remember, within the context of a web forum I try not to overelaborate certain points, instead using key words as bullet points for specific ideas. When I speak of faith, I'm referring specifically to a species of belief that is lacking in observable evidence. Did Moses speak to God through a burning bush? Did Jesus rise from the dead? Was Mohammed taken to heaven? These are articles of faith by which people live, die, and kill over. The very lynchpins of the faith of billions. Yet, they are as unprovable, as absurd as the gods of Olympus and Valhalla.

This is the crisis point to which these millenia of absurdities are leading us, because from here on out the Crusades and Jihads of the world will be fought with nuclear missiles and fighter planes.

Fair enough, but the removal of faith is just not something I'm willing to entertain as an option. Ever.

Faith is indeed the only way.

However, I know what you're saying. I just feel like your anger is all about religion and dogma, not faith. Getting hung up on the details, such as the tale of Noah's Arc, and the parting of the sea, the story of Adam and Eve, all that...it just seems way off target and quite a waste of time.

If someone really and truly believes that Jesus rose from the dead is quite insignificant in the light of how they treat their fellow man.

[SpiderByte]

Hezbollah's leader is saying...basically...bring on the war. This is going to become worse.